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Obsidian Scalemail


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#1 Sixko

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:20 AM

Hello,

 

Just finished my second campaign and am about to start a third.

 

In our last campaign we had a jain fairwood equipped with an obsidian scalemail which was an extremely powerful combination, basicly she would cancel all damage not blocked by her defense dice with fatigue and then recover 2 fatigue from not taking damage, this made her impossible to defeat for the overlord.

 

Preparing for our third campaign I looked over some things in the unoffcial FAW on BGG, I found this in regards to Jain Fairwood:

 

Q: If Jain Fairwood uses her ability and converts all damage received to fatigue, does she still receive a condition that requires her to take 1 [heart]?

A: Both Dark Pact and Jain Fairwood's heroic ability are applied when damage is dealt, which combat rules is the last phase of any given attack. The application of conditions occurs in the "spend surges" section. So, prior to any damage being dealt, assuming everything applies in regards to damage > defense, the effect of the condition will be applied during the Spend Surges phase, before the Deal Damage phase of the attack. Even if you could make an argument towards the Condition applying during the Deal Damage phase of the attack, any kind of timing conflicts *always* rule in favor of the active player, which in this case is the overlord. Since the overlord fulfills the requirements to inflict the condition (hearts > defense, surge: condition), he applies the condition to the player, and THEN the player may choose to redirect damage in whatever fashion he or she is able to. (1)

Q: If Jain Fairwood converts all damage suffered to fatigue, do game effects triggered by damage still apply? The original question involved spending a surge to apply the Poison condition, but there are other effects as well. It was argued that because damage is step 5 of combat, the surge in step 4 would still be able to poison Jain because (potential) damage was rolled.

A: Yes, Jain Fairwood would still be affected by game effects that trigger off of dealing damage. For example, a surge ability that gives poison would apply to a target as long as the attack dealt 1 damage, regardless of how much damage the target actually suffers. (1)

 

It seems to me that these situations are quite similar to the obsidian scalemail situation and I am not sure if we played this correctly or was cheating unintenionally.

What do you guys say?

Did we play this correctly or did we cheat?



#2 Whitewing

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 01:11 PM

No, you played incorrectly (doesn't mean cheating though, it's only cheating if it's intentionally breaking the rules for an advantage).

 

The damage to Jain when converted to fatigue is still damage. The decision to accept fatigue instead of taking damage is done after the damage resolution step. Obsidian Scalemail checks if damage > defense before the application of damage, and if the answer is no, then you recover 2 fatigue. Jain's decision to take fatigue comes after that check.



#3 BenOverlord

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 02:20 PM

I agree with Whitewing on both points.  Jain it is still taking damage for purpose of that affect so you do not get the fatigue back.  Also its harsh to call it cheating.  Just an honest misunderstanding of mechanics.  Easy to do in this game.

 

And wanted to point out a nice combo with the obsidian Scalemail that is about what you were trying to do.  Use mage ghost armor which for 1 fatigue you can add 1 shield and can do it multiple times.  That one does block damage due to timing.  So if you can block it all you get two fatigue back and can continue.  A runemaster with that armor and skill is near unkillable with monsters.



#4 Sixko

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:03 AM

And wanted to point out a nice combo with the obsidian Scalemail that is about what you were trying to do.  Use mage ghost armor which for 1 fatigue you can add 1 shield and can do it multiple times.  That one does block damage due to timing.  So if you can block it all you get two fatigue back and can continue.  A runemaster with that armor and skill is near unkillable with monsters.

Due to ghost armor adding shields directly after dice are rolled, before the damage phase of combat?

 

Thank you for your answers guys!



#5 BentoSan

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:38 AM

And wanted to point out a nice combo with the obsidian Scalemail that is about what you were trying to do. Use mage ghost armor which for 1 fatigue you can add 1 shield and can do it multiple times. That one does block damage due to timing. So if you can block it all you get two fatigue back and can continue. A runemaster with that armor and skill is near unkillable with monsters.

Due to ghost armor adding shields directly after dice are rolled, before the damage phase of combat?

Thank you for your answers guys!
That sounds correct to me, a good stratergy too might i add :) good thinking Ben

Edited by BentoSan, 06 March 2014 - 07:38 AM.


#6 griton

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 11:26 AM

I might have to play Devil's advocate here as there is a difference between the wording on conditions which say "Deals at least 1 Wound" and on Obsidian Scalemail which says "Suffer No Wounds". Where the suffering of wounds comes after the wounds are dealt. (As pointed out above where the Wounds are Dealt, thus applying the condition, before Jain would suffer them, and instead suffers fatigue).

 

Strictly speaking, according to RAW, I could see it argued that it is a valid tactic.

 

This question is probably best posed to FFG via he Rules Questions below.



#7 BenOverlord

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:55 PM

@ Griton.  good point.  Not sure if you are correct or not but that is a solid argument and I am not sure now.

 

The big issue is there a quite a lot of issues around the timing of things in combat and without an official clarification a few things are broken and I feel you just have to adjust to get things to work.  When exactly things happen is a bit debatable in this case. It could be either way.

 

There is a lot of problems with wording on cards with regards to attacks.  Best example is "after rolling defense dice"   When is that?  I think you have to say it varies from case to case.

 

Most I believe are before calculating damage or they are broken.  like:

"ghost armor"

most shield items.

Some OL shield cards like "dark fortitude"   Newer ones in plot deck say after dice are rolled so I suspect that is intent and is how we play.

 

Others have been ruled to be after calculating damage like:

"Runic Sorcery"   (add condition)

"black arrow"   (min 3 damage)

 

As for this case with the armor you would need an official ruling or make your own agreement as I think wording would allow you to argue either way. 

 

An official errata for these would be nice in case an FFG fellow reads this.  :)


Edited by BenOverlord, 06 March 2014 - 01:57 PM.





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