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Terminators and Wieldy


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#1 Soloman

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 02:19 PM

Hi All,

 

Just checking but as far as standard Terminators go, in the RPG they cannot dodge or parry with the regular set-up (Storm bolters and Powerfist/Chainfist)? So all Terminators just have to stand there and take it? Has that ever been resolved or amended anywhere? I mean I could imagine them being Unbalanced in Terminator Armour, but Unwieldy leaves you with no options.

 

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Otherwise it means everyone in Terminator in our future planned Space Hulk game will be rocking Power Swords if they want any ranged options.



#2 herichimo

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:41 PM

The bulk of a terminator armor is too great to allow for quick movements and agility necessary to dodge. No character wearing any kind of suit of terminator armor can dodge at all. A character wearing Terminator armor may still parry if allowed.

 

Generally, when you wear Terminator armor, you do so to take hits; not to avoid them. The armor is also meant to be used only in situations where space is at a premium and maneuverability is already limited (such as boarding actions). Walking across a typical open battlefield in Terminator armor is generally a bad idea, and a gross mis-application of the wargear.



#3 Calgor Grim

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 06:13 PM

This is somewhat why they get that forcefield roll of 35 as well, to make up for their reduced mobility...

 

One thing though I did hear of, my last GM did allow dodging in terminator armour (Granted at massively heavy penalty) because he mentioned there has in the past been fluff examples of terminators running or moving quite quick. Anyone able to source on that one?


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#4 Soloman

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 06:39 PM

Actually it's less about the dodge, which I completely understand, and more about not being able to parry either (given that both Powerfists and Chainfists are Unwieldy and given that those are the standard secondary weapon for Terminator suits) that leaves one screwed in close combat. And while I understand that Terminator armour is designed to take the hits, given the level of threat you have to face in order to get terminator armour, you wont be able to survive said hits.

Edited by Soloman, 02 March 2014 - 06:42 PM.


#5 Soloman

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 06:40 PM

Hmmm...my GM has pointed out that guns count as improvised close combat weapons, so it would be possible to parry with a Storm Bolter (with the applicable penalty for parrying with improvised weapons)...

#6 ak-73

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:35 AM

Some marines would rather take the hit than taking the chance of damaging a sacred Storm Bolter. :D

Anyway, anything that can penetrate Terminator armour probably will cut through the Storm Bolter without much impediment too.

 

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#7 Calgor Grim

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:36 AM

There is a very fitting quote regarding genestealers and rending claws, explaining their effectiveness against Terminator armour but it's not exactly PG-13. It would have suited the previous comment. In any case though, termie armour, we found actually had too many risks in some situations and players tactically opted for their conventional armour so that they may maintain their agility.


Edited by Calgor Grim, 03 March 2014 - 01:53 AM.

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#8 Visitor Q

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:40 AM

I think the idea of Termiantor armour is two fold.

 

1) In bording or siege actions (including trench warfare) where space is very limited and your facing pretty standard foe at close range.  One Terminator (let alone 5) will simply be able to dominate a horde of rebel guardsmen in such circumstances for example who can't bring their superior numebrs to bare and would get trampled underfoot by the Tactical Drednought (in theory).

 

 

2) In actions where your facing monsters, aliens etc who are fast and/or strong enough that a dodge or parry won't be enough to prevent the marines from getting hit.  Genestealers are the classic example.  They have 3 or 4 attacks each.  A marine in power armour may be able to dodge or parry one or two hits with the right skills but then will still be facing two or three more hits.  Even if he survives he then has to kill the xenos himself. 

 

Space Hulk Cleansing Doctrine dictates that the Astartes are better off loading their teams with more powerful weapons (powerfists, storm bolters assault cannons etc) and heavier armour (and a field save) to have a decent chance of surviving the assault and then killing the xenos critter in return, 

 

Make no mistake even in Termiantor armour Space Hulk and boarding actions are considered incredibly dangerous but I guess the Astartes are playing the percentages.

 

In situations where power armoured marines have numbers and the space to move and use cover then of course they are going to deploy a combined arms approach of a few marine squads, maybe a tank of some kind.

 

Finally the Imperium favours intimidation as a form of warfare.  Regardless of their effectiveness against well armed and trained troops, against a foe that has never encountered them before a squad of Terminators teleporting into a Command HQ may have the ability to end a war! (although I suppose the same could be said of other marine squads as well).

 

I have a question/comment though.  Previously it was always stated that it was only Terminators who had the ability to teleport because their armour insulated them from the worst effects of the Warp and also had the bulk to carry such gear as personal teleport homers for extraction.  However I am sure I have read in more recent Black Library stuff about power armoured marines teleporting.  Certainly in Rogue Trader (FFG)  the ship can have a teleportium that gives no restrictions on who can use it. 

 

Just wondering what peoples thoughts were on this?  The unique ability to teleport may make a difference as to the effectivness of the armour.



#9 Calgor Grim

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:23 AM

I dont see why you cant have power armour teleporting. Heck don't the GK have them on some of their suits of armour, clearly suggesting that you could get away with it and that the only reason they are predominantly on termie armour is just for the protection element.


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#10 Soloman

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:02 AM

I noticed that change too Visitor Q. I assumed that its just retcon creep as originally that was the case. However, if I remember what I've read recently, all of the Power Armour teleportations have utilised a homer, unlike Terminator armour which doesn't require it (Though it helps). Maybe that is a factor? As to your other points, I completely agree with all of it from a fluff point of view, I'm just thinking in game terms that when you are a high enough level to wear Terminator Armour, then what you are fighting probably ignores most if not all of it. As with Calgor Grims comment above, I can totally see that happening. The penalties for wearing it seem to outweigh any gains. Not only can you not dodge, due to its bulky nature, but you take a -20 to Agi on top of that. (Rather than taking that penalty to Agi and then trying to dodge)  I just think a simple rules revision would make all the difference, by making PF/CF and TH unbalanced in the hands of Terminators rather than Unweildy.

 

Thanks all for your imput though. Looks like I might ditch any traditional armament then :)



#11 Visitor Q

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:23 AM

I think Terminators originally had teleport homers in their armour as standard.  I mainly thought Termninator field protects against the warp (and even then it is dangerous).  Hmm.  I might mock up some rules for teleporting based on different armour types worn when making the transition.

 

Maybe there is scope for a few Talents that would allow Terminator veterans the ability to dodge or parry albiet with penalties.  I mean the sheer bulk of the Terminator pauldron would mean that turning at an angle might be enough to deflect a blow.

 

Prerequisites might be something a little more unusual like  'The Crux Terminatus and at least 10 renown gained on missions where Terminator Armour was used.' to represent that the PC has actually experience at uisng Terminator armour to his advantage.



#12 Kshatriya

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:56 PM

 Otherwise it means everyone in Terminator in our future planned Space Hulk game will be rocking Power Swords if they want any ranged options.

Just attach a chain bayonet to your SB if you want to parry. 



#13 Soloman

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:06 PM

Yes Kshatriya, funnily that came up just before your post. Makes you wonder why they aren't fitted as standard :)

 

Once again all, thanks for the posts!



#14 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:14 AM

I find the idea of parrying with a ranged weapon incredibly mood-breaking.

 

I know Imperial technology is tough, but if you parry something that can cut through terminator armour with a gun, the gun is going to break.



#15 ak-73

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 06:33 AM

Just checking but as far as standard Terminators go, in the RPG they cannot dodge or parry with the regular set-up (Storm bolters and Powerfist/Chainfist)? So all Terminators just have to stand there and take it?

 

Yes. Rely on their force field and punch everything to death that even makes it into melee.

 

Alex


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#16 Kshatriya

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 11:50 AM

I find the idea of parrying with a ranged weapon incredibly mood-breaking.

 

I know Imperial technology is tough, but if you parry something that can cut through terminator armour with a gun, the gun is going to break.

Yes, well, a Dark Angel can parry genestealer claws (which can rend Termie armor) with their Chapter trapping, which by all intent and purposes is just a well-made longsword. Immersion isn't consistent in 40k.



#17 Visitor Q

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 03:37 PM

I find the idea of parrying with a ranged weapon incredibly mood-breaking.

 

I know Imperial technology is tough, but if you parry something that can cut through terminator armour with a gun, the gun is going to break.

In fairness it does depend what you mean by parrying.  The pictures are all people in very photogenic, dramatic sword on sword blocking poses with obvious major contact between weapons.  In fact the most efficient parrys are simply flicking the opponents weapon to one side where the sharpness of the enemy blade or claws is more or less irrelevant.


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#18 herichimo

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:49 PM

In this case, using a ranged weapon to parry, I think the Common Sense Rule applies. While you can smack a guy upside the head with the butt of your boltgun, it really isn't able to parry a real combat melee weapon.



#19 Soloman

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:52 PM

Herichimo, I guess that's why without a melee attachment it counts as improvised and gets a -20% to parry.



#20 herichimo

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 04:08 AM

Technically, Unbalanced only gives a -10 penalty. Not -20.

 

The Common Sense Rule is in play for things which are just impossible. Deflecting an attack (especially an attack involving a power field or super-strong character) with a pistol or bullpup rifle generally fits into that catagory. Put a blade on the end of the weapon and turn it into a bayonet rifle then its doable, without it I'd give a player 1 parry (if being very generous), and immediately following the weapon is destroyed.






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