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Can a pilot take the Evasive Maunvers twice?


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#1 LukeZZ

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:35 AM

Can a pilot take the Evasive Maunvers twice during the same action (by taking an extra maneuver) to double its effects?



#2 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:39 AM

I'd be inclined to say no, but if the pilot really wants to take the hit on System Strain (it is a Pilot maneuver, of which you're only allowed one per turn) and make it really hard for any allied gunners on the ship to hit anything, I don't see it as being too problematic if you wanted to allow it.


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#3 whafrog

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:53 AM

I'd say "why not?"  It's like aiming, and comes with a cost.  That said, Aim is specifically called out as being stackable, whereas Evasive Maneuvers is not, so...YMMV


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#4 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:15 PM

Whatfrog makes a good point about not explicitly calling it out.

 

I like the compromise of being able to stack it if the pilot makes a roll. It gives pilots more to do in a turn, which is a good thing.


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#5 Krieger22

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:32 PM

I might allow it, but as a consequence I'd only allow Gain the Advantage to cancel out the penalty from one of the Evasive Maneuvers, not both.


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#6 themensch

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:44 AM

Page 232 of the core book states you can do it twice, but bear in mind both the pilot and the ship suffer 2 strain to do so.  


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#7 whafrog

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:43 AM

Page 232 of the core book states you can do it twice, but bear in mind both the pilot and the ship suffer 2 strain to do so.  

 

I'm not seeing that, maybe I'm missing it.  It does say you can do multiple maneuvers, but it doesn't specifically state you can stack Evasive Maneuvers (whereas it does for Aim).  Can you quote the section?



#8 Split Light

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:03 PM

I'd allow it, but like others say, it would give strain to both the pilot and the ship.



#9 themensch

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:51 PM

 

Page 232 of the core book states you can do it twice, but bear in mind both the pilot and the ship suffer 2 strain to do so.  

 

I'm not seeing that, maybe I'm missing it.  It does say you can do multiple maneuvers, but it doesn't specifically state you can stack Evasive Maneuvers (whereas it does for Aim).  Can you quote the section?

 

 

They don't specifically call out stacking it, or denying it.  The paragraph in question is on page 232, bottom left under Maneuvers, starting with "A starship or vehicle with  silhouette 1-4" and continues into the next column.  

 

From this I imply that we can indeed use the maneuver twice, but it costs the ship and the pilot 2 strain, and would doubly affect the difficulties for incoming and outgoing shots of course.  Nothing in the text expressly forbids it, and they're usually pretty good about calling those items out.



#10 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:20 PM

The real issue is if they can do it twice for twice the benefit. Does the second maneuver overwrite the first?

 

In a similar vein, can one take Evasive Maneuvers and then Stay on Target? Do they stack, or does the last overwrite the first?


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#11 Agatheron

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:42 PM

There may be something in the Order 66 podcast on the Evasive Maneuvers and Stay on Target. I think Sam Stewart said that it is possible to do both, but they would effectively cancel each other out... not necessarily by dice, but certainly by function.

 

In terms of doing Evasive Maneuvers twice, remember that unlike personal maneuvers, you can't trade an action for the second Pilot-only maneuver, but rather suffer 2 system strain, plus the pilot also takes 2 personal strain. However, the pilot may then take an action. So hyper-evasive maneuvers would mean 2 dice upgrade in difficulty to be hit and to hit... Given that a pilot can't do any more than that, and the ship would suffer 2 system strain regardless, I'd allow it. The reality is, a pilot won't be able to keep that kind of evasion up for very long, as vehicles Silhouette 4 and lower generally don't have a lot in the way of system strain. 


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#12 themensch

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:23 PM

The real issue is if they can do it twice for twice the benefit. Does the second maneuver overwrite the first?

 

In a similar vein, can one take Evasive Maneuvers and then Stay on Target? Do they stack, or does the last overwrite the first?

 

Ahh, this benefit is a double-edged sword though - while it upgrades the difficulty of incoming attacks once, it also upgrades the difficulty of outgoing attacks as well - so if you do it twice, double upgrade to both!  

 

I'm pretty sure Stay On Target is the antithesis of Evasive Maneuvers and would naturally cancel it.  I don't think it's explicitly called out in the rules but I'd rule it that way.  


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#13 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:16 PM

 

The real issue is if they can do it twice for twice the benefit. Does the second maneuver overwrite the first?

 

In a similar vein, can one take Evasive Maneuvers and then Stay on Target? Do they stack, or does the last overwrite the first?

 

Ahh, this benefit is a double-edged sword though - while it upgrades the difficulty of incoming attacks once, it also upgrades the difficulty of outgoing attacks as well - so if you do it twice, double upgrade to both!  

 

I'm pretty sure Stay On Target is the antithesis of Evasive Maneuvers and would naturally cancel it.  I don't think it's explicitly called out in the rules but I'd rule it that way.  

 

 

I'm not saying that it is balanced or not, I'm just pointing out that RAW isn't clear that the two Evasive Maneuvers stack. I could be that a pilot could do two, but effect of the last one overwrites the first. 


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#14 themensch

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:30 AM

 

I'm not saying that it is balanced or not, I'm just pointing out that RAW isn't clear that the two Evasive Maneuvers stack. I could be that a pilot could do two, but effect of the last one overwrites the first. 

 

I would agree that the RAW is not clear, but I think that it's implied in that it wasn't called out as different other than to be pilot-only.  Seems that's the way things work around here.  



#15 whafrog

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:54 AM

They don't specifically call out stacking it, or denying it.  The paragraph in question is on page 232, bottom left under Maneuvers, starting with "A starship or vehicle with  silhouette 1-4" and continues into the next column.  

 

From this I imply that we can indeed use the maneuver twice, 

 

I disagree, the fact that it's not called out implies you can't, because all cases where you can stack *are* called out (aim, recovering/imposing strain, etc).  I'd probably still allow it, but it would be a house rule, not RAW or RAI.



#16 themensch

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:07 PM

 

They don't specifically call out stacking it, or denying it.  The paragraph in question is on page 232, bottom left under Maneuvers, starting with "A starship or vehicle with  silhouette 1-4" and continues into the next column.  

 

From this I imply that we can indeed use the maneuver twice, 

 

I disagree, the fact that it's not called out implies you can't, because all cases where you can stack *are* called out (aim, recovering/imposing strain, etc).  I'd probably still allow it, but it would be a house rule, not RAW or RAI.

 

Interesting, in rereading page 200 on,  I believe they used Aim as an example and I'm not seeing a recover/impose strain maneuver, what page is that?  One would like to think that they would call out specifically if you can't stack the effects of maneuvers instead of just providing a few examples where it would be legal.  

 

I'd likewise rule it as possible given the right circumstances; given the strain cost, I don't anticipate anyone abusing this, but you're right, the rules are vague enough to see it either way (and maybe that's intentional....)


Edited by themensch, 04 March 2014 - 12:29 PM.


#17 Agatheron

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

I think in the case of double evasive maneuvers, it is the law of diminishing returns with system strain. Sooner or later, the ship is going to run out of strain, systems are going to overload, and suddenly they're going to be dead in the water.


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