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Changed the Hellgun a bit, Thoughts?


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#1 KPhan2121

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:23 PM

I'm GMing a game right now, and 2 of my players just bought voss hellguns and pistols but were disapointed when they realized that overall they were bad weapons so I modified the stats of the weapons a bit by combining the traits of the Dlaku hellgun and the Voss one to make one standard Hellgun.

Hellgun

Range 110

ROF 1/3/5

Ammo 40

Damage 1d10+4 Energy

Pen 3

Special Rules

Reliable? (is that a good idea)

Reload 1 Full

Cost 225

 

Hellpistol

Range 35

ROF 1/2/4

Ammo 20

Damage 1d10+3 Energy

Pen 3

Special Rules

Reliable

Reload 1 Half

Cost 185

I also reduced the reload time for the weapons since its kinda wierd that Hellgun reloads so slowly when it basically uses a charge pack similar to a lasgun.

What are your guy's thoughts, does this make the Hellgun way too powerful?



#2 Askil

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:09 AM

The hellgun uses a car battery compared to the lasguns AA. It`s bigger, heavier and swaddled in insulation. Think more akin to changing a machine gun belt than whipping the batteries out your TV remote.

 

Also if you want to more accurately reflect the hellgun as the poor mans bolter, (which is what they should be) I`d either drop the rate of fire or add overheating (hellgun barrels are prone to melting under sustained use and are easily switched out) and cut clip size too. After all there is a sensible reason that charge backpacks are the norm in hellgun deployment. 



#3 bojan

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 04:59 PM

Hellgun from RT S/2/-, d10+3, pen 7, range 60 (IIRC), no clips, only backpack pack with IIRC 100shots.

Mimics current tabletop version S3 AP3 18" range, Rapid Fire



#4 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:27 AM

Yes, this is a hiccup here becase the IH was written b efore the 5E Imperial Guard codex.

 

As mentioned above, they should be S/2/-, d10+3 (they're 1d10+4 in BC and OW and DW), pen 7



#5 Cymbel

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:14 PM

If you use the pen7, they need the reduced range as well, RT IIRC was an unfortunate hybrid between the two.



#6 bojan

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:03 PM

I prefer to have various versions. 

Voss S/3/5 d10+3 pen 4, range 90

Lucius S/2/- d10+3 pen 7, range 90

Kantrael S/3/- d10+4 pen 6, range 60

Dlaku S/3/5 d10+4, pen 4, range 50

Not exactly those stats, but you get a point - trade some range for more damage, or trade damage for penetration etc. Makes them more variable which adds flavor to them.


Edited by bojan, 03 March 2014 - 09:14 PM.


#7 borithan

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:25 AM

I personally actually think the Pen 7 is just wrong. I don't think the change to AP 3 in the tabletop actually changed the fluff of the weapon, it was purely a mechanical decision to try and give them a purpose on the tabletop (as no one really bothered taking stormtroopers). I don't think hellguns were suddenly meant to knife through power armour like it wasn't there. Basically a real argument for the return of Armour Save Modifiers in the tabletop game (which Pen effectively functions as in the roleplaying game).

 

I personally think the original one as statted in the IH is more "accurate." FFG have had an irritating tendency to directly translate 40k game mechanics into 40k RPG mechanics, when the former is increasingly abstract and the latter, as an RPG, and so more detailed, should generally aim for greater "accuracy".



#8 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:32 AM

Pen 7 does not knife through PA like it wasn't there. That 1 or 3 AP is significant  in a weapon that does lasgun-level damage.

 

The one in the IH actually serves no point; there is no reason for anyone to use it since other weapons in that niche (low damage, middle-low Pen) are much better. There are already a plethora of such weapons, starting woith the ubiquitous autogun with manstoppers.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 06 March 2014 - 05:36 AM.


#9 KPhan2121

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:15 PM

I saw the stats on the Rogue Trader Hellgun and i think it looked pretty good, I could just give it the variable power settings for it to function as a more versitile weapon.



#10 Cymbel

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 12:27 AM

I also don't like the change from Hellgun to "Hot Shot Lasgun" with it's AP3

 

Hellguns had their own niche, "How do we essentially provide our elite troops with a harder hitting weapon, but avoid the specialty ammo problems of, for example, bolters" The only thing lacking was the shot capacity, which seemed low, for even one firefight. THANKFULLY there is finally an ammo backpack that makes some sense in DH2e, which IIRC is 15kg and 5x the capacity of the weapon (So a 30 Shot Hellgun has a respectable 150 shots, fitting a trooper who expects to have long firefights, but also extraction soon.)



#11 KPhan2121

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 02:10 PM

I'm gunna have to disagree with that sentiment, since the Voss Hellgun was essentially a poor man's bolter and you could easily get an autogun to do something similar. I think the increase in Pen gives the Hellgun a cood niche (at least for my group). Striping down AP 16 cover so the other weapons could hit the enemy behind. 



#12 borithan

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:04 AM

"Poor man's bolter?" "Hot shot lasguns" used to be exactly that. 2nd Edition 40k they had identical stats to a bolter (S 4, -1 ASM, 24 inch range), and combining that with the previous version of the hellgun (Strength 3, AP 5... which was so pointless in the post 3rd edition world. "Yay! guardsmen don't get a save vs our weapons. Woot! Wait... we're guardsmen...") I actually think it is more the kind of level that hellguns are meant to be operating in the "real world" of 40k. AP 3 was just to give them a reason to exist in the current versions of 40k (they should have never got rid of ASMs. Reduce them, sure, but not get rid of them entirely and replace them with the all or nothing nonsense of AP).


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#13 Visitor Q

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 05:21 PM

"Poor man's bolter?" "Hot shot lasguns" used to be exactly that. 2nd Edition 40k they had identical stats to a bolter (S 4, -1 ASM, 24 inch range), and combining that with the previous version of the hellgun (Strength 3, AP 5... which was so pointless in the post 3rd edition world. "Yay! guardsmen don't get a save vs our weapons. Woot! Wait... we're guardsmen...") I actually think it is more the kind of level that hellguns are meant to be operating in the "real world" of 40k. AP 3 was just to give them a reason to exist in the current versions of 40k (they should have never got rid of ASMs. Reduce them, sure, but not get rid of them entirely and replace them with the all or nothing nonsense of AP).

 

First a caveat I actually think the Pen 7 for hellguns in the RPG works fine both in game terms and fluff.  However other than that I pretty much agree with everything your saying.

 

In particular it is interesting to see the distinction between the RPG where it makes sense to wear some armour as Pen levels often will not completly negate all your AP (Pen 7 vs Power Armour being a case in point) and WH40K where the AV rules means that given the choice you might as well not equip your Guard with flak armour and simply take the points that would save to buy more of em.

 

And don't get me started on cover in WH40K.....



#14 KPhan2121

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:51 PM

Ok after a few sessions with the Only War Hot-Shot Lasgun, I decided that it was way too powerful for this type of game. So I'm coming back with an update to my homebrew Hellgun

Hellgun

Range 90

ROF 1/3/-

Ammo 30

Damage 1d10+5 Energy

Pen 3

Special Rules

None

Reload 2 Full

Cost 180

 

Hellpistol

Range 30

ROF 1/2/-

Ammo 20

Damage 1d10+4 Energy

Pen 3

Special Rules

None

Reload 1 Full

Cost 140

 

I basically added +1 to the damage values for both the weapons, fixed the Hellgun's crap reload time and slightly reduced the range for both weapons.

 

So how does the Hellgun fare now?



#15 Cymbel

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 02:09 AM

It should have a slow reload, as does any weapon with a complicated feed (like a belt fed heavy stubber). That said, the powerpacks are too low as is for the hellgun to be realistic (especially with 10kg weight). In DH 2e they have the best "ammo backpack" I have seen so far. Roughly 15kg and has 5x the base ammo stored. So the 30 shots and 10kg backpack becomes 150 shots and 15kg, which seems actually usuable for elite troops on a mission.


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#16 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 09:49 PM

Really? I would think that the OW hellgun is perfect for DH, since its advantage is very high PEN -- and cultists and so forth don't wear much armour, if any. To them it's just a lasgun. In fact worse than a lasgun since it can't overload.



#17 KPhan2121

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 01:26 PM

It should have a slow reload, as does any weapon with a complicated feed (like a belt fed heavy stubber). That said, the powerpacks are too low as is for the hellgun to be realistic (especially with 10kg weight). In DH 2e they have the best "ammo backpack" I have seen so far. Roughly 15kg and has 5x the base ammo stored. So the 30 shots and 10kg backpack becomes 150 shots and 15kg, which seems actually usuable for elite troops on a mission.

Ok, how about just using the normal Voss-Hellgun/Pistol stats but you give them the Tearing Special rule?

 

Really? I would think that the OW hellgun is perfect for DH, since its advantage is very high PEN -- and cultists and so forth don't wear much armour, if any. To them it's just a lasgun. In fact worse than a lasgun since it can't overload.

How would that be perfect? The description says that Hellguns are prefered by Storm Troopers and Inquistorial Agents since they hit harder.


Edited by KPhan2121, 01 May 2014 - 01:26 PM.


#18 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:21 PM

 

It should have a slow reload, as does any weapon with a complicated feed (like a belt fed heavy stubber). That said, the powerpacks are too low as is for the hellgun to be realistic (especially with 10kg weight). In DH 2e they have the best "ammo backpack" I have seen so far. Roughly 15kg and has 5x the base ammo stored. So the 30 shots and 10kg backpack becomes 150 shots and 15kg, which seems actually usuable for elite troops on a mission.

Ok, how about just using the normal Voss-Hellgun/Pistol stats but you give them the Tearing Special rule?

 

Really? I would think that the OW hellgun is perfect for DH, since its advantage is very high PEN -- and cultists and so forth don't wear much armour, if any. To them it's just a lasgun. In fact worse than a lasgun since it can't overload.

How would that be perfect? The description says that Hellguns are prefered by Storm Troopers and Inquistorial Agents since they hit harder.

 

 

I thought the concern was that the hellgun/hot-shot lasgun would be unbalancing in DH?



#19 KPhan2121

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 07:08 PM

No its that the Voss Hellgun was a terrible weapon(Relative to everything else) and I wanted to try some ideas to make it more powerful, but the Only War hot-shot lasgun was too powerful so I'm coming up with ideas to make the Hellgun good without making too powerful.


Edited by KPhan2121, 01 May 2014 - 07:09 PM.


#20 Cogniczar

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:12 PM

An alternate idea:

 

Use the base Voss-Patterns, but include inbuilt Targeter, Fluid Action, and Modified Stock to their portfolio. These are made by the Takara Fanes of Gunmetal city, afterall, and these three built in upgrades would find a unique niche that earns their keep nicely.






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